IBIS Macromodel Task Group Meeting date: 27 July 2010 Members (asterisk for those attending): Adge Hawes, IBM * Ambrish Varma, Cadence Design Systems Anders Ekholm, Ericsson * Arpad Muranyi, Mentor Graphics Corp. Barry Katz, SiSoft * Bob Ross, Teraspeed Consulting Group Brad Brim, Sigrity Brad Griffin, Cadence Design Systems Chris Herrick, Ansoft Chris McGrath, Synopsys * Danil Kirsanov, Ansoft David Banas, Xilinx Deepak Ramaswany, Ansoft Donald Telian, consultant Doug White, Cisco Systems * Eckhard Lenski, Nokia-Siemens Networks Eckhard Miersch, Sigrity Essaid Bensoudane, ST Microelectronics * Fangyi Rao, Agilent Ganesh Narayanaswamy, ST Micro Gang Kang, Sigrity Hemant Shah, Cadence Design Systems Ian Dodd, consultant Jerry Chuang, Xilinx Joe Abler, IBM * John Angulo, Mentor Graphics John Shields, Mentor Graphics * Ken Willis, Sigrity Kellee Crisafulli, Celsionix Kumar Keshavan, Sigrity Lance Wang, Cadence Design Systems Luis Boluna, Cisco Systems Michael Mirmak, Intel Corp. * Mike LaBonte, Cisco Systems Mike Steinberger, SiSoft Mustansir Fanaswalla, Xilinx Patrick O'Halloran, Tiburon Design Automation Paul Fernando, NCSU Pavani Jella, TI Radek Biernacki, Agilent (EESof) * Randy Wolff, Micron Technology Ray Komow, Cadence Design Systems Richard Mellitz, Intel Richard Ward, Texas Instruments Samuel Mertens, Ansoft Sam Chitwood, Sigrity Sanjeev Gupta, Agilent Scott McMorrow, Teraspeed Consulting Group Shangli Wu, Cadence Design Systems Sid Singh, Extreme Networks Stephen Scearce, Cisco Systems Steve Kaufer, Mentor Graphics Steve Pytel, Ansoft Syed Huq, Cisco Systems Syed Sadeghi, ST Micro Ted Mido, Synopsys Terry Jernberg, Cadence Design Systems * Todd Westerhoff, SiSoft Vladimir Dmitriev-Zdorov, Mentor Graphics Vikas Gupta, Xilinx Vuk Borich, Agilent * Walter Katz, SiSoft Wenyi Jin, LSI Logic Zhen Mu, Mentor Graphics ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Opens: - Arpad: May want to discuss a new BIRD -------------------------- Call for patent disclosure: - none ------------- Review of ARs: - Michael M. contact Synopsys about line continuation inconsistency - MM sent email to say he may not be able to join us - Todd: I will be taking that task - Arpad: Write parameter passing syntax proposal (BIRD draft) for *-AMS models in IBIS that is consistent with the parameter passing syntax of the AMI models - TBD: Propose a parameter passing syntax for the SPICE - [External ...] also? - TBD - Arpad: Review the documentation (annotation) in the macro libraries. - Deferred until a demand arises or we have nothing else to do ------------- New Discussion: Arpad: Any questions before we vote? - Ambrish: What are the 3 bullet items? - Arpad: Walter had a separate BIRD in addition to his flow BIRD - It is an enhancement to his original proposal - Ken: What is the summary of changes? - Arpad: Vote: Which flow BIRD should be submitted to Open Forum? - Walter's proposal - Arpad's proposal - Roll call vote: Agilent Arpad's proposal Ansoft Walter's proposal Cadence Walter's proposal Cisco Walter's proposal Mentor Arpad's proposal Micron abstain Nokia-Siemens abstain Sigrity Walter's proposal SiSoft Walter's proposal Teraspeed Walter' proposal Intel abstain - Final tally: - Arpad: 2 - Walter: 6 - abstain: 3 - Walter's proposal will be submitted to the Open Forum Arpad: Any comment on the text of Walter's BIRD? - Walter showed his BIRD document - The date has been changed to today's date - Arpad: Page 7 Step 1 introduces Touchstone with no clue how it would be brought in - Walter: Several vendors use Touchstone to represent analog behavior - It has some filtering effect - The buffer itself can have filtering that is included in impulse response - Kumar: The channel model can include anything - Walter removed the Touchstone reference - Fangyi: Does analog include I/V and V/T? - Kumar: Yes - Ambrish: How can s-params be used in an IBIS framework? - Walter: One way is to put it in an AMI file - Ambrish: There should be an introduction before section 3 - Walter renamed section 3 to "Reference Flows" - Arpad: Page 8 has 6a and 6c but no 6b - Ambrish: Would like another week to read this - Arpad: This should be ready for submission? - Walter: I can send a PDF to Mike for posting to Open Forum - Bob: For Open Forum it should be a text document - Ambrish requested another week to look at the proposal - Walter: If there are changes the vote can be delayed - Bob: Why vote if it's not ready? - Walter: The Init_Returns_Filter BIRD is very simple Walter showed the Init_Returns_Filter BIRD: - It has the same name but the logic is different - The usage was Info, type Boolean, default False - Existing models would do what they do now - New models would work the same in old tools - If True the filter impulse response is returned - No EDA tool changes are needed - This could be merged into the other BIRD - Bob: That would be preferable - Arpad: We are targeting IBIS 5.1 - We should decide based on how clean 5.1 will be with and without - Bob: This affects only section 6 - Walter: We could vote on the concept before deciding on the merge - Kumar: The complexity is of concern - Model makers may be confused - This will not affect TD flow? - Arpad: This eliminates deconvolution - Kumar: That is a special case, probably rare - Todd: This is not that rare - Our model have GetWave even if LTI - When running both you have to deconvolve for TD - Ken: Tools can catch that - Todd: Any tool vendor can detect problems and raise a flag - This will become more prevalent - Kumar: This makes it more complicated - Todd: We have made model making simpler - The split model was complicated, but we eliminated it - Ken: Do we introduce new syntax for this combination? - Arpad: This is useful is deconvolution is OK - Ken: The BIRDs should be kept separate - Todd: This will impact the other BIRD - Walter proposes merging them in advance - Bob: We should decide on that now - Ken: It is supported in a tool specific way - Arpad: We should have read this and be ready to vote on this BIRD - Bob: We need more time - The syntax is wrong - A few other problems - Walter: This is the syntax passed into the DLL - I can send this for discussion next week AR: Walter send updated Init_Returns_Filter BIRD to list and Mike for posting Todd: Model makers can't know they will have this problem combination - Ken: They can always make TX a dual model - RX models will always work - Walter: They will work on stat flow - Problem if not LTI - How would you apply RX equalization? - You would lose TX jitter - Todd: We need the presentation on what the problem actually is - Ken has a point - Ambrish: We should always use TX Init with it - Todd: We are nowhere close to closure Arpad: I have a new BIRD to discuss next week - Walter showed Arpad's new BIRD - Arpad: This addresses character issues - We need to define white space in .AMI files - It is nearly done other than that Next meeting: 03 August 2010 12:00pm PT -------- IBIS Interconnect SPICE Wish List: 1) Simulator directives